Category: Let's talk
Okay, so the other day I watched a TV show about how homosexuals view one another within the gay comunity. On the show there were a masculine gay male, feminine gay male, butch lezbian, lipstick lezbian, drag queen, bisexual, and a transgender woman who was previously a man. So I want to know if you guys think transgender people are homo or hetero. When a transgender individual dates the current oppposite sex, are they gay because they were previously the same gender as their partner? Or, are they hetero because they now date their partner as the oppositv sex? Do any of you believe that a person will always always always remain the sex they are born as and there is absolutely nothing they can do to change that fact?
I believe that if you do not have the equipment do produce sperm you are not a male; and that if you do not have the equipment to produce eggs/children then you are not a female. However, if I ever met a transgender person and knew they were such, I would address them as they pleased and would not grill them about their gender or sexuallity.
Very interesting question. I personally think that they're heterosexual because they truly feel that they were born with the wrong body parts. So if someone is born a man but sincerely knows that he was meant to be a woman, I'd refer to him as her and she and say that, if she dated a man, she would be straight. Of course, the same holds true for ftms. The tricky part, not in homo/heterosexuality, but in sexuality in general, is when a trans is either pre-op, chooses to not have the whole body changed (i.e. maybe remove breasts but keep vagina instead of having a penis made) or chooses not to have any kind of operation. As much as I respect them, I couldn't personally go with an ftm who was pre-op or who didn't have his bottom changed.
Actually, I would agree, it all has to do with how one feels about themselves; and are comfortable with themselves. I am in total disagreement about, "I believe that if you do not have the equipment do produce sperm you are not a male; and that if you do not have the equipment to produce eggs/children then you are not a female." How do you classify males born without testicals? That does occur as my mother found out to her horror when she said (to her boss), "If you only had the balls to stand up for..." And later she discovered that he was born with only one testical, and what about women (like myself) who have trouble conceiving, or, (worst case sanario), can't reproduce do to trouble with said equipment? Am I less of a woman because I can't pop them out like candy and may never have one such mirical of my own?
I'm with the original poster on this one. You can artificially change yourself into something else, thanks to modern technology, but I tend to feel as Conundrum does. Still, as said in that post, I too, would be respectful of a transgender person. I have only known one personally, and although I'll admit I absolutely do not understand the transgender thing, I would not be nasty to someone on that basis.
I agree with the first poster, but for the sperm and egg thing, but I think it means nature. You are naturally what you are borned, and you can change that, but you will remain what you are born as. I personally could not be with a man that has changed himself in to a woman, but like all other posters they deserve respect and kind treatment. I have personally been close and been invited to tell the person if they were male or femaile, and the wrist, they scent, and such things, the neck and bones can not be changed, so the male was still male to me, and the female still had a female feel and scent, so. Interesting subject. I can't say what they should be though of as if they are with their same sex however. I suppose they are still gay?
I don't know if this is really about belief, but still needs some sorting by the sciences perhaps.
Like others on here I'll respect a person's choice / name change.
The people I know who have the most problems, I don't include bigotry in this discussion as those folks are so feeble and helpless nobody can help them, but anyway the folks who have the most problems are friends / family that must now relate to the person on gender change. I know of one woman who is supportive and helpful to her once-was-son-and-now-is-daughter, but she was honest in that she has had to grieve the loss of the son. Nobody talks about the effects on families, and while people debate the issue and there are medical papers written on the subject of the person in question, it's my opinion she's probably not got adequate access to help for this unique grieving situation. She is being a sport, which helps the one changing genders, but she's also an individual, she's also going through some major adjustments. You think gender doesn't matter, I'd love a son and daughter just the same, and for love it doesn't of course, but now she as a parent is forced to contend with a situation you or I haven't even thought of. And her situation is entirely different from that of the transgendered person.
Her critics would say she has to accept the person as she now is, but that acceptance is not missing here. I admit, I think I'm quite incapable of conceiving of what it's like to be her. I'm not blaming the transgendered person here, but because this problem is not being sorted out by medical science but is politicized, all aspects to the disorder, including the grief of the mother, aren't being addressed. The only help available for the parents is to help them support the transgendered. What a total crock! They need help for themselves, and I admit I'm baldly impotent to even conceive of what that would look like.
Now, professionally, I've worked with transgendered people, and some are more difficult to tell if the voice sounds like the opposite sex, but for those who have integrated fully into their new gender it's pretty easy. So why does it matter in a work situation? Because women of their own making aren't equal: a couple of guys may joke around, one call the other 'Sir limp a lot' because he's got crutches, and the woman is most likely to become offended, get some attention, and go report it. That's why.
Now I've seen some more sportsmanly women who were capable of playing along, even what some would call 'butch' lesbian or straight who are basically one of the boys to the point guys don't have to change conversation and say 'There's a lady here,'.
Yunno, as someone that's blind I don't consider it equal if I have to manage the surroundings making it impossible for others to be themselves around me. If I want to join something, I don't try and change how that something works just because it'll make me feel better. Women will gain far more in equality when they adopt a similarly sportsmanly disposition, whatever the girl version of sportsmanly is, for those of you that say it doesn't transfer. I have far more respect for my sister-in-law, a marine who does triatholons and the like, than I ever did for the girl who fought and fought to get into Virginia Military Institute as a woman, then wanted to lower standards and the like. Sorry, I'm just not game for that. And you may say, 'You're a man, you've no right to say. You don't know what it's like to be us!' and that's true to a point. But you'll never find me carrying on at a work situation because panels and lights don't have labels, or because something may be difficult to use or access, simply because readers either can't access it, or it's so niche it's near impossible. The challenge then becomes mine. And that's doing something, rather than just being offended.
I realize I got a bit off track there, but that's probably the biggest cause for trouble when dealing with a gender-confusing situation.
Very interesting points. While I agree that acceptance is important, it would be ridiculous to say that the families of trans people don't go through their own special grief or transition, particularly parents or guardians, and most especially mothers who gave birth to their children. As you've clearly demonstrated, it's not always that they're unwilling to accept their children's/relative's new genders. It's just that it takes getting used to. Take a much simpler example. I want to change my name from Tiffany to Eleni. I'm not changing my gender or doing anything drastic, just changing my first and last names. Yet my family, as well as a few people who've known me for a long time, feel uncomfortable calling me Eleni. So imagine what it must be like when the physical attributes and voice of your loved one changes and they go from a name of one gender to that of another. As for women being sportsmanly, I couldn't agree with you more. I've always been offended with the "there's a lady here" routein and try to make it a point that while I'm a woman, I'm not a lady whose ears will shatter because someone said fuck or made a crude joke. As a matter of fact, I prefer it and often join in with the fun. It's the squeemish women as well as those with the "don't ask me my age" complex who truly annoy me. I'll be very honest. For a time, I thought that I was transgendered. But after some hard self-examination, it turned out that I just didn't like female stereotypes (prissiness, drama, into superficial things like hair/nails/makeup etc.), wanted to be treated equal an was into more masculine than feminine things in general. Now I feel comfortable with my gender and with who I am.
Cattleya, I did not say that if one could not produce sperm or eggs/children that they were not male or female. I specified that if that person does not have the particular equipment; I never mentioned the functioning of it. And if a man only has one testicle, that's not none, and he's still not a female because he possesses no utuerus or ovaries. And if a woman possesses a uterus and a pair of ovaries that don't function well or had all that removed, she still has certain inborn characteristics that classify her as female. So no, no one is less of any sex because something is missing or malfunctioning. At the end of the day, women don't have balls and guys have no uterus or ovaries; and if someone just so happens to have both, then they can choose whatever the hell they would like to be.
Amen, Eleni! I've never thought about actually changing my gender, but there have been times I've wished I had been born a guy, not a girl. Like you, I detest girly crap, and stereotypes surrounding women. More to the point, women who perpetuate those stereotypes drive me even more crazy. A male friend once told a sexually suggestive joke around a group of us, and this idiot woman gets on his case for telling the joke in what she referred to as, "mixed company." I wanted to strangle her. the dislike of obsessing over things like hair, make-up, and nails cost me a lot socially in college, when so many girls were having things like hair coloring parties, or going off to Denny's in their prom dresses. Made me want to puke.
But then, as is clearly shown by the fact that sometimes guys want to change their gender, I'm sure there are men who are frustrated with the stereotypes surrounding males. I can understand being frustrated with your own gender sometimes, but as I said before, I simply can't get my mind around wanting to change your own entirely.
Neither do I, but I'll still treat them how they want to be treated. Everyone should feel comfortable in their own skin, but their choices should also be respected. I, too, have a problem with the fact that some people seem to think you need to talk differently, or more gently around women, and find myself trying to avoid socializing with such people when possible.
to the last couple of posters, I couldn't agree with you more. I can't stand when people say things like, "oh, there's a lady here...so don't talk like that". I don't believe in being ladylike; if I can't burp/fart with the guys and fit in with them on their level, I'm not being true to who I am. fuck being ladylike; if ya can't handle me being myself, you have no business interacting with me in the first place. that's all there is to it.
I dont think they have to be male or female. It is really up to the individual, according to how they see themselves. I think we're trained to think in a binary way about gender, when there are so many different ways people see themselves. We have to take in to account that gender, sexual identity, and sexual orientation are 3 completely different things.
Well said man. I too get revoltedly annoyed at the whole "ladylike" business, and can't stand when guys think it's their duty to act like dicks just because they have them.
I personally think people need to focus more on humanity than gender. The stuff between your legs doesn't define who you are, how you should act or who you oughta be attracted to. That's all between your ears.
Yes but instead of lashing out at us guys, you ought take on your own kind, see. Most men do it because they think women will be upset if they don't. We can't read minds, and your real quibble is with those of your own kind, not us.
Um, no. I was giving examples of the people and behaviors that give each gender a bad name. Mainly ladylike crap and guys acting like motcho assholes because they think it's manly. In mentioning my annoyance at the ladylike stuff I was taking on my own kind.
As far as gender, there is something called the third gender that exists in at least one culture. I forget it's name off the top of my head, and perhaps, there's more than one culture like this. But the one that comes to mind treats people of the third gender with the highest respect and they're called upon as people with healing or psychic powers. It could be a Native American tribe, now that I think of it.
I've heard of that. I've also heard of this school in, I think, Thailand that even has bathrooms for a 3rd gender. Boys' girls' and the one I can't pronounce.
Hermaphordite? her maph or dite? Hell, was going to try it...Can pronounce it, but can't spell it. LOL. I wasn't meaning to be offensive; (if I was) in my last post, but the post was written in such a way that I felt you were saying if you didn't have the male parts than your not male...My example about a guy having only one testical was just that...For all I know there are guys who have been born without either. *shrug* My point about nonworking parts is because an individual can have a penus formed; (with opporation) so, they do have the parts. God, I hope this made since...If not I'll try again tomorrow.
It certainly makes sense. *smile* I also love the quote from Leele "The stuff between your legs doesn't define who you are, how you should act or who you oughta be attracted to. That's all between your ears." Someone should make a shirt or poster with that on it!
Sounds like a Facebook status or a Tweet.
Post 18: Sort of, but that's not the word I was looking for. The article mentioned a word in Thai, I think it was Thai, that I can't say for the life of me. Think it was something like Cathoe? Cathoi?
Post 19: Thanks. lol, Bumperstickers go on sale tomorrow...
I found it! It was Thailand and the term is Kathoey. I originally saw it in wikipedia's article on "third gender." Here's another article.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1820633,00.html
Might want to find the print link, or else it'll be a bitch to read.
lol I was just about to post the same link before checking your's. I saw it on Facebook this morning. It's very interesting to say the least. I'm glad that at least one country doesn't have as many stigmas as many others when it comes to the third gender. Btw, the article is easy enough to read. Just go passed the links and you should be fine.
Thanks for the links. This is something that interests me. Not that I'm confused about myself, (I'm woman and damn proud to be), but things that others treat as abnormal, different, ETC, always interest me. Which brings to mind a question...How can we as mostly blind individuals criticize another group that is societies outcasts as we are? Think about it, people treat "the third gender" and/or "transsexuals" as we get treated, (in most places). Why can't we as societies outcasts (I call us that because most of society unless forced to; by birth, association, ETC: see us as abnormal, wrong, freeks, ETC) treat another group of society's outcasts as I've heard some on this board do? How the hell are us outcasts ever going to get somewhere if we can't even accept others that are outcasts like us?
What it really seems to come down to is that there is no universally accepted "normal". It all depends on your culture, beliefs, and other such factors.
Concur with Post 24, and before I entered the blinkosphere I assumed other blinks would, like me, see the illogical conundrum there of wanting to be treated normal ourselves, and yet denying it to other people. I'm actually rather surprised at the staggering numbers of those who basically hold a white trash male trucker viewpoint. And yes wite trash male truckers are people too, and certainly possess all the rights everyone else does. Where one's individual rights cease is at the point they interfere with the rights of others.
I agree, but I hate that N word. I hate it more than that other N word everyone else hates.
I totally agree with you there. I'm not all for this politically correct crap, but I really don't like that particular word, not even when one doesn't mean anything by it.
I'm confused. The one word must be nigger, but what's the other? Ah, normal. lol Yes, that word actually is a bad word, and it's very rare indeed that I ever say that about words. But I was taught in anthropology and in sociology that there is no such thing as normal. Granted, I'm not a relativist, and people who take that to the extreme anger me just as much as those who insist that everyone must be like them. These relativists are the same who think that certain things i.e. abuse, genital mutilation, circumcision, rape, harming children or animals (the latter needlessly/not for food) are all fine because they're accepted in a culture.
I don't believe in being "normal"; normal meaning an individual who does/is/thinks/says what the majority of society thinks is right. I'll gladly say, "I'm not normal, and I'm damn proud of it!" However, as one of the groups of society who are obviously so "not normal" to think down on others because they're different; (when we're so obviously different from the norm ourselves), it does no good for anyone, and in my opinion; (scoff if you want), all this type of mentality does is hurts us as a group. That is just one of the reasons I don't associate myself as a member of a "blind group"; (NFB, ETC), or often even spend much of my (real) life worrying about "blind" topics. As long as we as a group are unwilling to accept others who are different I'll be just as glad not to typically associate myself with the group as a whole...None of this was said for offensive, but simply the observations of a "outsider"; (I didn't go to a blind school, I don't belong primarily to "blind groups" or Web sites{The Zone is an acception for reasons of my own}, I don't do most things the "blind way", ETC), this is why I am an outsider, and probably (knowing people) will remain an outsider.
I suppose I'm an outsider too for the same reasons, though I do have a few blind and visually-impaired friends because I don't care whether you can see or not. If you're a good person, and we can respect each other, I'll gladly have you as my friend. . Still, I'm not an active member of any blind groups. I joined the ACB but never really did anything passed get membership. Still, I'm not against them and I do love the AFB, more specifically the NJFFB, because they're a great group of people.
The problem, at least in American culture, with the idea of normal, is there's this subtext. Normal is something all people should want to be, should strive to be, it is what is preferred and gets you liked and loved by others. This is what I dislike about that word and it's why I prefer to say that normal is just a setting on a clothes dryer. As for why blind people might pick on other groups who are just as much outsiders as they are, I've got a few ideas as usual. Could be that it's a product of what you grow up around. If your sighted family has certain ideas about who is normal and who is not and they think it's just a natural matter of course, most likely a blind person will pick up those ideas unless of course they do a lot of thinking and examining and go against their programming. Could also be the idea of degrees of normality, and perhaps some blind people see themselves as more normal than others, so we can do the whole pecking order thing. OK, shall we go out on a limb? Let's get into really crackpot territory. How 'bout this. Some blind folks are so indoctrinated with the idea that they must blend in with sighted people to be liked and accepted and get friends and dates and jobs that they will take on the attitudes of those who are, for want of a better word, the oppressor just so they can feel and appear that they fit in. Yeah, I know, it sounds nutty but I bet it happens.
I only used normal for lack of a better word, a word which means the mass majority of the population. Nobody suggested a substitute, and by using a word I didn't mean anything by it except the mass majority of the population, that's all.
Godzilla: Nutty? I'm not sure. Certainly many Native Americans in an effort to get off the reservation looked down upon 'reservation Indians' as savages, and adopted the customs / religion of the oppressor.
On the contrary, there are now groups who never had any cultural connection with their biological forebears and yet now they talk of this kinship and the like, so I think it's all in what you want and what you'll do to get it. I certainly like a more heterogenous or diverse population to live around, but then again I live in a part of the country where that exists.
Well, look at me. I don't have any Greek blood and yet I'm a very strong Greek patriot. I refer to Greece as my country, to the people as my people etc. some accept me and some don't but I've found that, so long as I love myself, no one can bring me down but The Gods and me. I know what I am and what I want to be and that's what counts.
Oh, I didn't mean that I'd look down on anyone if I like them, I like them: blind/sighted, hedro/gay/bi, white/native/black; it don't matter, but I have to be able to respect one to call him/her friend. I simply have a hard time respecting those who can't/won't think for themselves. Yeah, I know what my family believes...Being in KY, in an area that didn't have mixed race schooling until the 90's I was raised with prejudice BS, but I'm an individual, I'm not a member of the BORGUE, and, I will never act like it. The gods gave all of us individual brains that function apart from society for a reason, and damn it, I'll use any gift I possess.
Okay, as someone who likes "girly crap", I can say that I don't think that stuff is superficial. I don't feel I have to get my hair done, or buy clothes or perfume, I just like those things. I do think though that societies will adopt a standard with regard to presentation. If a girl doesn't like getting her hair or nails done and isn't into clothes, I think that's fine. I don't mind a raunchy joke every once in awhile, but I think extremely explicit language is inappropriate for either sex. But, I'll admit it, I think belching, in the right situation, especially after a few drinks, can be funny!!
tothe poster who said that they feel you can have different "equipment" and be another sex:
Why? I mean, gender is not just in your head, it is a part of you. It is hardwired into a person's biology.
For most of us, you're right. But what happens when the person feels that he/she has the wrong biology and wishes to change it to the one with which he/she feels the most comfortable. Then, assume that he/she goes through with the opperation. What if he/she now feels happy with the new biological gender? Surely, if the head didn't rule such things, we'd all feel comfortable with our sex. One more thing, and I'm guilty of misusing the word here myself. Gender is a cultural construct. Sex is the actual biology. So someone who feels inclined, say, towards the male gender but who was born with female anatomy really wishes to change his sex not his gender, since he already knows what he is inside.
Well Tiffanitsa, such a person would feel happy because the temporary psychoses has been satisfied and now that person is free of it.
Of course psychology can play a part in that case but it still doesn't actually change who they were meant to be.
No, the surgery did that. *smile*
Yes, it changes who they are, not who they were meant to be. I am not religious but I don't think it is good to mess around with nature.
I don't believe in messing with nature, but neither will I believe that Mother Nature wishes us to be unhappy with ourselves. All of you who are against sex change opporations; (or at least believe they don't change much), do you feel the same about a breast reduction/enhancement, tummy tuck, eye surgery with decent chances of success, ETC? I'll freely say that if their is a surgery that gives me decent chances of seeing I'll take it. I was born blind, so, one could argue I was meant to be that way, but if it is an option I wish to change that aspect of myself. Is one wrong for wishing to change an aspect of themselves that makes them unhappy? Or even if not unhappy; (I'm not unhappy blind), but simply a issue that I'd be willing to change if possible to make things easier and to be able to see nature herself and the faces of those I love, ETC? I know you could argue that it isn't at all the same question, but in both circumstances; (sex change, eye surgery), you are changing something about your natural body...Don't you think that if these surgeries weren't meant to be they would not be? Or, even say if you believe in a hire power(s) if the surgery weren't meant to work it simply wouldn't? "God helps those who help themselves." No, I'm not Christian, and I don't wish really to get religious, but I do feel if it makes one happy/helps the individual and it works, why not be happy for them helping themselves?
Love love love post 12 by HotPerro! I think all too often many don't recognize the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. Two totaly separate matters. Some would go so far as saying that the trans community should not be lumped together with the gays as is now in the LGBT community. A common reason for that belief is that many trans persons are straight in their sexual orientation. Complex and interesting topics.
Yes it is wrong. You are who you are and I don't know why you would change it.
So if a cure can be found for blindness, deafness or a terminal illness, people should just pass it up and stay blind, deaf or die in pain etc. when they could've had another option? I agree that things like plastic surgery for purely cosmetic reasons are a bit overboard. But if someone has the money and really wants to do it, why not? And if it's a truly medical reason like needing to change gender, I can't see the problem. I understand that it's difficult for some of us who aren't experiencing this to understand it. But look at it as the person feels abnormal and that a truly horrible mistake was made. I'm not talking about people like me who are just tomboys, but people who wake up in the morning and honestly feel alienated from their bodies. This is totally unrealistic, but suppose that, for some strange reason, you woke up and your body had changed to the opposite gender. You went to the doctors and they said that they don't know what happened but that the only way to change it was surgery. How would you feel? Would you still say that it's wrong to wish for a change, that you need to deal with the cards that nature gave you? Think of your relationships, your associations, how strangers would see you only as a woman etc.
No because if I just woke up that way I would want to go back to the way I was born. I was meant to be a certain way and I was transformed somehow; that is quite different. If a person wanted to see and was blind and they had a cure, it would be a real shame that they couldn't be happy enough with themselves to stay that way. Again, why mess with nature?
Wow. I will never understand that. I went blind when I was two-months-old and couldn't imagine refusing a chance to see, provided that it was safe and had a high rate of success. It's not that I don't love myself or that I'm not happy. But I want all the benefits that sight can offer, not the least of which is true independence.
I agree with margorp yet again.
I just think that deep down, you must not be happy with yourself if you would want to see. Same goes for surgeries.